Episode #152: Managing Your Career

with Laurie Ruettimann

We get so many questions from listeners about career management and progression. I normally shuffle these to the back of the deck, purely because I always feel as though this isn’t my sweet spot - leadership is! 

But, due to popular demand, I’ve decided to do an episode (with a little help from a friend). My special guest is Laurie Ruettimann, and this topic is absolutely her sweet spot! Laurie’s an ex-HR professional who became disillusioned with how organizations worked, and chose to go out on her own so that she could make a real difference. 

Her recently-released book, Betting on You: how to put yourself first and (finally) take charge of your career, is a fabulous guide to all things job and career related.

Managing Your Career

with Laurie Ruettimann

EPISODE #152 TRANSCRIPT

We get so many questions from our listeners about career and career advice. It's not really my sweet spot, even though I dabble in it from time to time.

What I have done today is to bring on a very special guest, Laurie Ruettimann. This is her absolute sweet spot and Laurie has just released her book, 'Betting On You: How to put yourself first and finally take control of your career'.

Welcome Laurie Ruettimann!

Laurie: Marty, thanks for having me. It's an honour to be here.

Marty: Now Laurie we met well, it'd be almost a couple of years ago now, in your hometown of Raleigh, North Carolina. I was a guest on your podcast back then, which was, Let's Fix Work, now Punk Rock HR. That's going really, really well. Isn't it?

Laurie: Marty it's a joy to be a podcast host because I just sit back and let people be brilliant. It's very difficult to be in the hot seat and you did a great job on my show. So thank you for that.

Marty: Yeah, no, it's a pleasure. And today I'm going to ask a lot of you in terms of your brilliance, because as I said, this, isn't my sweet spot and I really want to focus down on your book because having read it, it's fantastic. I loved it. Congratulations. It's brilliant.

Laurie: Well, thank you so much. You know, it's a labour of love and you as an upcoming author of your own book, know that you put your heart and soul into something and you release it in the marketplace and you don't know what's going to happen. It turns out COVID happened when I launched my book, but what a perfect time to talk about pivoting and rethinking your career and really, you know, living a new life. Why did we survive a pandemic if not to do things differently? So that's the spirit in which I'm marketing the book and it's going well. So thank you.

Marty: Yeah, absolutely. That's great. And of course, you know, we hear about things like 'the big quit' going on in the U S at the moment, and all sorts of other disruptive things that are happening in the labour market. So let's get straight into it. I love some of the quotes in your book. They're just fantastic. And made me smile all the way through. I love the one that says "nobody likes conflict", which means the person who kisses ass the best is rewarded the most. That sounds cynical, but have you found any exceptions to that rule?

Laurie: Well Marty, a good rule always has exceptions, right? I think it is true that in most organisations, people are rewarded for nodding their head and supporting the status quo.

But the exception are those individuals who are self leaders. Who lean into individual accountability. Who step from a place of learned helplessness into a state of ownership and say, you know what? I believe in myself. I have faith in my knowledge, skills and abilities. And if that means having a difficult conversation, I'm not going to personalise it. I'm moving into the space of self-leadership to really move the organisation forward. Move these big ideas forward.

So yeah, people who are self leaders are absolutely the exception, but they're also the exception to the rule. They don't exist very often. Which is why I wrote my book to help people realise that if they have a dream, the only person that can make that dream happen, that's them.

Marty: And when you say they don't happen very often, would you be prepared to put a number or percentage on that in terms of, I quite often say that even though I've worked with some absolutely brilliant people, capable, experienced, intelligent, strategically thoughtful, I've worked with very, very few great leaders. I can count them on one hand over my 35 plus year career.

Laurie: Yeah. You know, all consultants are masters in the art of fake statistics. So I would like to tell you that I don't know, 10% people are equipped to be true leaders or even self leaders, but I don't have a good number with that.

But what I do know from my own experience and leading large scale transformation, working with executives, is that it's a rare soul who's brave. Who knows oneself and knows where they're headed. A lot of times people are just kind of faking it til they make it. And I don't hate that, I did that for many years in my career, as I wrote about in my book. But I think we have an opportunity now to pause, reflect, think, and then act. And that's what I believe in. That's the kind of behaviour that's going to change the world and transform leadership.

Marty: Mentioning that, fake it til you make it thing, Laurie, that does stick in my craw I've got to tell you. There's always got to be a period of time, for growing into a role, and I'm convinced about that, but you can't fake it for five years and think that that's okay, so there's certainly a time aspect to that for me.

Laurie: You know, Marty, I'd love to hear your opinion on this because so many individuals do the fake it til they make it, but they really talk themselves out of success. You know, they have imposter syndrome. They walk around thinking I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough. And it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. It's like, yeah, you're right. You're not good enough. You're not smart enough. And they almost become their own career impediment. So, I bet you see that in many organisations where you work and it's almost difficult to coach somebody out of this place of self doubt only they can coach themselves. But I don't know, what's your experience with that?

Marty: Yeah, it's very, very similar, Laurie, I think for me, the real skill and nuance of leadership is being able to get people to put that aside, and show them how to stretch themselves and how to perform.

Instead of hiding behind this facade of, I want to seem as though everything's okay even though I feel this crushing panic inside of me, I think the thing about leadership is drawing them out of that. Getting them to go beyond that and say, take a risk. Stretch yourself. Be brave. And I'm going to put a safety net underneath you in case you fall off the trapeze. I think that's really the key thing. So they feel safe to do that. In a lot of organisations, the stretch isn't put there because people don't feel safe to stretch. They'd rather hide.

Laurie: Really well said. You know, if only more organisations would listen to us, Marty, we would change the world. Come on now.

Marty: Hey, we are changing the world, Laurie, that's okay, right?

How do you know when it's time to leave your job?

Marty: Now let's get into some specific questions that we get really, really regularly from our listeners. One is "How do I know when it's time to leave my job? How do I know when it's all over red rover? And I've just got to cut my losses and move on".

Laurie: You know, Marty, I've spent my entire life looking for signs and I've been disappointed. I think there's no heavenly sign that comes down and tells you it's time to go.

There are only your observations, your feelings and your gut instinct. If your gut instinct tells you, I don't have any place to go, any place to grow. Anybody who mentors me, anybody who challenges me- I don't think you need a sign. You have common sense and your own felt wisdom to make some good decisions.

I think what I'm often surprised by are intelligent people who pay mortgages, raise children, went to university, who come to me saying, "I don't know what to do. I haven't had a conversation with my boss in six months about my performance".

I'm like, if you don't know what to do, I don't know what I'm going to do for your career. I think listening to ourselves, paying attention to obvious signs is a sign of emotional regulation and adulthood. I want more of that in the workplace. And if I have to just badger you into being an adult, through my book or through my coaching, I'm happy to do that. But ultimately the decision is yours. You know, Marty, what do you think about people who wait for signs?

Marty: I think there is divine intervention at some points, but waiting for someone else to give you a clue is not the way to create action and to create results.

So, critical in my view, is just take accountability for yourself. When we talk about being your own HR, which I want to get onto in a minute, no one is ever going to care about your career as much as you are. It's just a fact. So if you don't take control of that and decide that you're going to do something differently and that you're going to take responsibility for doing the things that you need to do to move forward, well, you can't sit around and bitch and moan because someone else isn't doing it for you.

Laurie: No, that's really well said. You know, a lot of people tell me that this is easier said than done. And I go, yeah, no kidding. That's why so few people do it. That's why greatness is hard to come by. But if you take a risk, if you put yourself first, the chances are greater that you're going to succeed that you ever expect. This can absolutely happen, but to your point, Marty, nobody can do it for you.

And you know, the consequence of this is that you might fail, but what are you going to be homeless? No. Are you going to get kicked in the face by somebody? No, no. You may take a career step back. You may be a little embarrassed. You'll get over it, but if you don't try, you will never know. And that's the point that I make in my book and my coaching. Even in my consulting with organisations that are like, I don't know, this is a big step, do we invest in these cloud-based solutions? It's like, no, you don't have to invest in the cloud. You can still store all of your data in the C drive in a closet. But the risk is that somebody comes in and wipes all that out. You know? So, I mean, there's no clear clear path. We find our own paths, but I would encourage more people to take risks. I mean, why the hell not, come on?

Onboarding yourself into a new role or new organisation

Marty: Yeah, totally, totally. And one of the things about being your own HR, you talk about handling your own onboarding in an organisation. And I talk about this slightly differently, but it's exactly the same concept, is taking responsibility for you, when you go into a new role or you're promoted to a new level, for you to work out what that means. And understanding the new context and working to understand the new context. What are some of the tips that you have for onboarding yourself into a new role or into a new organisation?

Laurie: Well, so many organisations are now obsessed with onboarding, but it's all process. It's all, you know, pre-boarding and making sure the paperwork's done. And then you show up virtually and you have your agenda filled for the day. And I think all of that's very healthy and necessary, but I think we have to take individual accountability for our own experiences.

So one thing I like to recommend, and you know, not everybody loves this idea, but if you're joining a team, you really ought to stalk the hell out of your team and get to know them before day one. In fact, you should be doing this during the interview process, but if you haven't got to know what they like, what they don't like, because business is based on relationships. The first year of your job anyway, is all about establishing the fact that people can like you, they know who you are and what you stand for.

And they trust that you're going to do what you say you're going to do. So given all of that, the only way you can really convince people is by getting to know them, establishing these relationships.

So even though the Europeans hate when I say this, go online, get to know somebody. Or if something's mentioned in a conversation, a favourite football team, a favourite brand, a favourite musician, get to know more about that individual identity so that when you show up on day one, you can actually be a little relatable.

And isn't that what life is all about, Marty? Whether it's work or just humankind, we want to be relatable. We want community. So do your part, whether it's onboarding or just getting to know people in a new community.

Marty: Yeah, that's a great tip because the relationship element of it is grossly underrated in terms of team and individual performance. And focusing on that first up, I guess, is an absolute, no regrets move. So yeah, great tip there, Laurie.

Laurie: I want to know from you, what's a good tip for onboarding as an individual contributor showing up on day one? How do you tell people to prepare for that first day?

Marty: What I do normally is that I say, ask yourself the questions that are going to establish what your role is. Now you've got a position description or the equivalent, you'll have the values that you can look at on the website or the wall of the foyer in the corporate headquarters, but to understand what your role is, it's really about understanding what groups you're part of. What relationships you need to form that are important to you in terms of peer relationships. Who's in your team and what success looks like in terms of value creation. What your boss expects from you. What time horizon you should be working at and focusing on.

All of these things are intrinsic to understanding what the role is and what success looks like. And then explicitly agreeing that. With your boss, with your peers, with your team, here's what I'm going to do. Here's where I'm going to focus. Here are the things that we need to achieve to be successful. And so it's a very explicit process of asking yourself the questions, finding answers, and then testing those with those around you who are going to judge your performance from their perspective.

Laurie: I love it. I can see why we're friends. And also, I'm going to worry a little bit about my job as a career advisor, because you're quite good at this.

the biggest mistakes people make in the job search phase

Marty: So we talk about being promotable and not being concerned about making yourself redundant, but making yourself promotable as a trusted advisor and someone who can go to the next level and understands how to do that. And so that's a really, really key part. But look, we were talking about job search as well in terms of stalking people in your job search phase, so that you can actually learn about them and learn about who you're going to have to build relationships with. What are the biggest mistakes you see being made in this job search phase? Where people are looking for a new role, either they're still in the one they're currently in and they're attached to it, or they're out in the market looking for it with no job. What are the biggest mistakes you see people make?

Laurie: Well, I don't think people are curious enough about the organisations where they're applying to. So, they may know an industry. They may know a company, but they're relying on surface level, internet searches to understand what the company offers and who they employ. And I'm an old school recruiter. And I believe in secondary references, going behind the scenes, trying to, you know, unbuild the engine, and dig a little deeper.

So really talking to people you like, know, and trust about a company, about a brand, about a leader, trying to understand who they are in the good moments, but also who they are and the challenging moments because every organisation has peaks and valleys. And if you can't find that data or you don't have a good data point, ask during the interview process. Like don't be afraid to go deep because after all you are a consumer of work and you know, the power differential is changing, especially here, state side.

So take this opportunity to really go deep and understand where you're going to be spending 50 to 60 hours a week for the next couple of years. So the biggest mistake, is that superficial research that most candidates do.

Marty: Absolutely. You've so hit the nail on the head there because when we're in job search mode, we are optimistically geared to seeing this prospective employer or prospective organisation as being fantastic. And we've got the rose coloured glasses on, and it's really hard to convince ourselves that there's going to be as much ugly there as there is in our last organisation. So really, really good advice there, Laurie.

Laurie: I really wish I would have taken my own advice, earlier in my career. Had I only asked my supervisors, you know, what would some previous employees say about you? Or on your worst day, what is that like? Or, you know, have you ever had a crisis at work? And what did that look like? And what do you wish you could have done differently? If I had just dug a little bit deeper, I think I might've made some different career decisions, but instead again, to your point, I was this sentimental optimist like, oh, it's going to be great this time.

And what's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That was me and my job search. Just taking people at face value and going, okay, here's the offer letter, Where do I sign?

So I've learned the hard way to go a little deep and you know, again, that's part of leadership. Hearing what you don't want to hear and still making a good decision anyway.

How to leave an organisation and negotiate your exit

Marty: Laurie just to finish off, something I love in your book is how to leave an organisation and negotiate an exit, which I just love.

Now, my view was always, you don't get a good exit on the way out, you get a good exit on the way in, when you negotiate a really firm contract that gives you options. And so I've always had this view that if you haven't done that, on the way into an organisation and got yourself a great employment contract, then it's really hard on the way out to have any leverage. But you have a really fail-proof technique for this that I absolutely love. Do you want to share that please with the audience?

Laurie: Sure, sure. I mean, this is a nuanced technique that I've used over and over again with my clients. And Marty, to your point, if you don't negotiate on the way in, it is very difficult to negotiate on the way out. But so many people don't know that they can ask for more. So many people have no idea what executives bake into their contracts and technically we're all executives of our own lives. And so if you're in a position where you have nothing and you would like to leave an organisation, you can look at the job you're doing today and try to understand, is it the same job that you were doing when you were hired? And if it isn't, you can look around your organisation and you can see, are they laying people off? Are they laying people off because positions have been redundant? Can I somehow fold myself into this effort?

So through the book, I take people step-by-steps through some of the language that they could use. I also recommend that they talk to an employment lawyer. But you better believe that your chief marketing officer, your chief sales officer, anybody who is in the C-suite or even at a vice-president level or a director in Europe, is definitely leaving with some money in their pockets. You should try too.

And I think that's the most important thing to say, what are they going to do? At worst, they're going to say no. They may walk you out the door, but you were leaving anyway. And I think there's something really beautiful and brave in saying to an organisation, you know, you made a promise when I started here, this is what the job looked like. I'm doing something differently. Let's find a win-win solution so that when I leave, it's a smart transition, but it's planned. And that's the most important thing.

Marty: Yes, absolutely. And that's great advice. I love it.

There were so many little gems in that book. I loved it. So for our audience, 'Betting On You: How to put yourself first and finally take control of your career’ by Laurie Ruettimann. It's a fantastic read and I can't recommend it highly enough. Laurie, thank you very much for joining us. I'm sure our audience got a heap out of that. Some great little tips from someone who's been on the frontline of HR for lots of years. And of course now the work you're doing over there is fantastic. And I certainly will catch up with you as soon as I'm in the U S. Laurie Ruettimann, thank you so much for joining us.

Laurie: I can't wait, Marty. It'll be great to see you in real life again.

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